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Since you guys are a neutral party.

I have this old girlfriend I recently got back in touch with after about 23 years. Everything is cool and we enjoyed catching and all that but the conversations are taking a different turn.

Anyway she home schools her kids, I have never agreed with home school because I think it tears some families apart. Her Virtual School in Wisconsin is supposed to be shut down due to violations of statutes of some sort. It's called the WIVA if you're interested at all.

Well she sent me this link to read about how they're going to have some kind of demonstration march to keep the WIVA open.

I read one of the Teachers story there and it makes me mad, as the Home School thing usually does. When you read it and my comments you'll know why. I was going to send her this email but wanted an outside opinion first. She still might see it because if you Google my user name here it comes up a lot.

Her first name is Sue so you know what you're reading.

Here's what I was going to write her about it, am I an asshole and off base here?...

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I have some issues with it. Read the Teacher's story below.

http://www.everykiddeservesagreatsch...__Stories.html

Read it carefully as parent that sends your kids to brick and mortar schools only and thinks it IS the best for THEIR kids.

If I had this woman in front of me I'd bitch slap her right into reality. This is the pompous arrogance I'm telling you about with all this home school psychobabble. I'm sorry but if this woman shows up to whatever march is happening and speaks I'm afraid you're all doomed. The WEAC will tear her a new asshole. The WEAC is right on one account "Parent involvement is too much" they don't mean parents shouldn't take part in their kids learning process. They mean they shouldn't have as much involvement as they do. Parents are becoming the primary educators and they're not qualified to be such, some are some aren't. Better find another straw man argument because that one won't float.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
"Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent’s position and then refuting it, thus giving the appearance that the opponent’s actual position has been refuted."

Let me pull out some stuff to show you how pompous this lady is. I'd rather my kids go to a regular school than have to deal with this kind of self righteousness and arrogance.

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In my school, licensed, experienced teachers instruct students and partner with parents (who strongly value their child's education) to ensure the curriculum is carried out to the mastery level.

Notice the part in parenthesis, this opposed to parents who just don't give a shit about their kids and send them off to regular school because we're too lazy to home school our children. Ohh but wait a minute Gary, maybe she means they "also" value their child's education as much as other parents, right? Well why didn't she say that, it's set up as a reverse straw man, intentionally leaving out "also" sets it up. I believe she wants us to assume that only parents of home schooled children value their child's education and the nay Sayers then can be told that "I meant that these parents ALSO value their child's education." Please explain "mastery level" to me, by whose standards, this Teacher's? So only by home school can children attain the "mastery level" I'm gonna barf!

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In my school, teachers use additional technology tools to deliver instruction to students in a "virtual classroom" through a program called Elluminate LIVE. In these classrooms, I am able to teach lessons directly to students as a group, tutor students individually, and separate my students into individual work groups while monitoring their learning activities together. Through this technology I am able to communicate through a Web-cam and microphone, and teach lessons using a digital pen on a "virtual whiteboard," which appears on the student's individual computer screens--in the exact same way a teacher uses chalk on a blackboard in a traditional classroom.

The whole paragraph above is nothing more than a straw man statement. There's nothing that she says here that is BETTER than being in a real classroom, only different. It doesn't make a good case for choosing to home school only that it can be AS good. This technology isn't additional in a sense, it's a necessity because of lack of direct interaction with the student, and trying to show that it somehow makes a better student is a really weak argument for it. Why not just teach at a regular school where direct contact can be made every day? Eliminate all the expense for all this technology needed to make it SEEM like a classroom and gasp... use a real classroom and chalkboard. Use the saved money for better facilities and more class space, maybe even better pay for themselves. Doh... self owange on her part.

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Frankly, I have more meaningful contact with students in this 'virtual' setting than I did in the brick and mortar world of traditional schools.

The only thing I take away from a statement like this is this teacher couldn't handle a regular classroom and maybe should think about a new career. An explanation should have been given as to why she feels this way. It only solidifies my doubts about her motives for teaching in a virtual environment. The statement is empty and not backed up with facts, define "more meaningful” there’s only arguments that virtual school is as good as regular school. Again, why home school when you try to continuously show me how a virtual school is as good as a regular school?

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Here's one that has me rolling on the floor with laughter...
On-line scripted lessons, written by professionals in the field, are presented to the students at their own pace. Because a student does not need to move along with the masses in a classroom of 25-30, individualized attention can be poured into each one.

Notice the word "individualized"... You mean to tell me that this teacher can supply a more individualized focus on a student from God knows where (or even out of the district, the main point of the lawsuit) better than a Teacher in a classroom where she or he might have direct contact with a student? Let's assume virtual learning is the best thing since sliced bread, hell everyone wants to do it. Furthermore how many do it now? How many students does this teacher have now, does anyone know? If it's ever found out that this Teacher indeed does have 25-30 students she has some real explaining to do as to how she can pour individualized attention into each student better than she can as if she was in a real classroom. What does not moving along with the masses have to do with individualized attention, not a thing that I can see. It doesn't float and insults my intelligence. Gee, I only went to brick and mortar schools an I could own this Teacher without hardly trying.

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Students in Wisconsin's public virtual schools are receiving an exceptional education from licensed teachers.

Students in brick and mortar schools do the same. There's no statistics that show home schooled children are better adjusted or better educated than any other kids. Actually I would have no idea how anyone could quantify that. This is a "nothing statement" that brings nothing to the table except maybe plant a seed that somehow home schooled children receive a better education than other students through regular channels.

There's laws and statutes put in place by the Wisconsin Board of education with the intent of protecting everyone's right to an education and no is immune from them. Even if we don't think they are fair or right gives no one case for dismissal of the law. If the WIVA is violating statutes put in place and doing their own thing, showing how well the school works... well... has nothing to do with the case. Even if it did it would be a weak argument, see my next paragraph.

Suppose I'm Lawyer X for the Board and suppose I'm talking to Teacher X and Y for the WIVA. "Teacher X, why should the Board of Education continue to charter these virtual schools when you yourself continue to try to tell me how these schools are just as good as regular schools? You've provided no facts to base that opinion on, show me facts that prove the schools are just as good as regular schools and not straw man arguments. If you try to tell me they are better than regular schools show me statistics that prove it." Teacher X... "Duhhh uhhhh duhhhh" Lawyer X... "I think I'm done owning this one" OBJECT, Layer X..."OK embarrassing her" OBJECT Lawyer X... "OK, OK discrediting her, next victim... I mean witness"

Lawyer X... "Teacher Y, you do not live in the district in which you teach, this violates the statute (such and such) put in place by the WEAC and Board of Education. Basically you're not spending 8 hours a day within the district or at a brick and mortar school as would a regular dues paying Teacher. Most of your time is spent at your home not within the district, explain to me how this is fair to a Teacher that does spend her time in the classroom abiding by Union rules and the District rules?" Teacher Y... "Duhhh uhhh Duhhhh" Lawyer X... "OK I'm done with this witness"

What I'm getting at here Sue is the WVIA had better come up with something more than how well the School works, hell I don't even doubt that it does work as well as regular school. Maybe it does even work better, that's not the issues at hand though. I'll tell you one thing though, coming off with that pompous attitude that it is somehow better and the children receive a better education will win them no supporters and only more detractors.

Actually you've peaked my interest in this case, I'll be watching it, I'd rather not see your school get shut down but it seems as though it's a done deal. Just get some better people to articulate the issues than this lady.

Even after your introduction, I have no idea what you're looking for.

Everyone I know/worked with that is home schooled has very little social skills and couldn't interact well with others. You can supplement the education at home but school is as much learning how to interact as it is academics.

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Originally Posted by andyofne (Post 4610)

Even after your introduction, I have no idea what you're looking for.

Basically if I'm too much of a hard ass really. I think I'm just gonna drop the issue and listen to her complain about losing her school because of a silly thing called laws. They all ignore the law and try to use "It's a better education, what's wrong with that" excuse to circumvent the law.

I think ignoring it is the best answer, your going to argue about something that has no bearing on where your next meal is coming from.

I agree completely with knutty, the value add of social skills gained in 'public' schools plays an intregral part in a childs development.

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Originally Posted by ALLT4 (Post 4612)

I think that with the poor quality of public schools these days it's hard for me to make a blanket statement about home schooled people.

I think it's a toss up.

I have two families in my neighborhood with home schooled children. The children in both are much better behaved than most kids I've met. In one family the kids seem a bit less socially motivated but the kids of the other family are very outgoing and friendly. All the kids from both families seem very very bright. I know that I don't have the patience or skills myself to home school my kids but these folks sure do a fine job of it. In the end it's up to the parents as it should be. To each their own.

What I didn't know about these Virtual Schools is that they are chartered by the public school system. It's public school at home. Teachers may not even live within the district that pays them. Students may be going to these schools because of open enrollment that don't live within the district that pays for the school. I think I'd be upset also if I was a Union Teacher working within my district but seeing funding go to Virtual schools. Because it's public it's free for the parents to an extent, certainly not as expensive as if they were actually Home Schooling their children and footing the bill themselves and paying school tax on top it. The Schools even loan them Computers to use for online lessons. One of the other things I think that isn't fair to parents who live within the district and who aren't fortunate enough to have one spouse make enough money for one parent to stay home is this. They don't have the option of taking advantage of the program, they send their kids to public school yet some of their tax money that's supposed to be used for their district school goes to parents and kids in these Virtual classrooms. Parents and kids already fortunate enough to have one parent at home are using money footed by the less fortunate.

Personally I don't care if someone wants to home school their kid or not. Is it a better or worse education, are the kids better or worse adjusted socially, I don't know and don't care. It's the attitudes of some parents and these Teachers that try make it sound like if your kids aren't homes schooled they're at a disadvantage somehow. Those aren't even the issues here, yet they continue to ignore the real issue and keep spewing this rhetoric. Like I say it's all a straw man with them. "You want to close our Virtual Schools because the Union is a gestapo and my kids are doing doing better than if they were in a brick and mortar School." Maybe the kids do better in Home School but it's no case for ignoring the statutes. One of them is that your kid(s) actually attends the district school that charters it. Not just appears in Virtual reality to a School outside your own district.

This Wisconsin case will probably be a turning point for all public chartered Virtual Schools. It's interesting and conversation if anything. Plus I'd like to know if any of my tax money is going to one of these Virtual Classrooms, I'd rather see my school tax money stay at home and in my kids school. Not used to cater to families who are already more fortunate than me and could afford traditional Home Schooling, they need to go find their own money for that if that's what they want to do.

Home schooling has it's pro's and con's for sure. However, I think that when the parent does it properly, the pro's far out weigh the con's. How successful it is really depends upon the parent more than anything else.

I was home schooled from the fourth grade on back when it was just starting to take hold and even then we had a group just in my area of well over 40 families or around 70 kids by the time I finished school, there are a lot more now (13 years later). We had field trips together and met once a week to help with the socializing issue which was and should be a concern for any parent who decides to go that route.
Where I am, Florida, the state requires all home schooled children to take the same standardized tests that public school kids take to insure the home schooled children are where they should be academically and the fact of the matter is, most of them score considerably higher than the state average.

Some parents can't handle doing something like that, and some do it for the wrong reasons, but in most cases, at least out of the people I know who were and are being home schooled, it has proven very beneficial for the child and without listing them off, has a lot fewer con's than a public school education....and I'm not just referring to academic performance when I say "con's".

Sounds like dropping it would be the best bet unless you are gonna marry her or something. Just pop in some comments here and there about it maybe.

Personally, as a father of six myself, I think it mostly has to do with the parent who is doing the schooling. If they can trully dedicate the time and be as effective as a "regular teacher then I think its all good. As long as they interact their kids with others with sports or something like that too.

With me I cannot even get through helping my kids with their homework without stressing out. I cant seem to explain somethings to them in a way they understand. Plus, don't have the time for it.